Fargo Fracas

[vahockey]

Seems like the logical choice at this point, given OSU's performance this season (and the last two seasons), in addition to the school's ability to pay him.

No secret Dean Blais wants to coach college hockey again. Surprised the Fargo Forum hasn't pointed out that there is a 50-50 chance he never coaches a USHL game. Can't blame the ownership -- get him on board, get the buzz going, dangle some new sheets of ice in front of the youth hockey community.

What D-I school with a commitment to hockey wouldn't want to hire him?

[fangers]

offtheglass said:

USHL/Fargo

Coming to a theater near you......Dean Blaise as the new head hockey coach at Ohio State University.

Interesting....could be a welcome change to some???

[gbpuckfan]

Plenty of cities the USHL could have expanded too.
Cincinnati, Louisville, Lexington, Findlay, LaCrosse, etc.

Once or If the IHL ever folds - Bloomington, Ft Wayne, Kalamazoo

P.S. Why did Tulsa, Topeka, Danville, Thunder Bay, Dubuque, Rochester, and St. Louis all fail or cease opeartions?
=====
I would argue that Cincy, Louisville and Lexington are too far outside of the USHL footprint. Now, if several teams joined at once, making a division with Indy and Colmbus, maybe.

There is no ice at the La Crosse Center. The city has rejected several proposals for adding add. The city makes sense for lots of reasons, but you still need a place to play.

The USHL approached the Bloomington people after the UHL problems of last season and was rejected. That may change.

Ft Wayne and Kalamazoo may be options, but we've seen where cities that have had pro hockey reject the USHL. USHL backers may argue the up-and-comers vs. never-weres-and-has-beens, but that doesn't always work.

Dubuque moved to Tulsa because it wasn't going to meet the initial Tier 1 attendance requirements at Five Flags. (Same reason for Rochester folding and North Iowa moving to Cedar Rapids, IIRC.) Tulsa was disaster from the start, despite a nice building, and the team couldn't compete with the minor league team.

Topeka had a bad taste in its mouth, IMO, after the minor league owner issues with the previous team. Plus, travel was a b****. I hope it works for them in the NAHL, but they never got the attendance needed.

Danville jumped to the USHL and moved to Indy. That building in Danville is too small for the USHL. The franchise still exists, though.

Thunder Bay had issues competing with another team in town, plus coping with travel costs, etc. I believe they have a junior team in a Canadian league now, which may make more sense for them, but I could be wrong.

St. Louis was a disaster. It was in a suburban rink which wasn't big enough. They didn't have a marketing budget to get noticed, etc.

Let's face it, this league works best where it's the top hockey option - that's why it's successful in Green Bay, Cedar Rapids, Lincoln, Waterloo, Sioux City, Sioux Falls, Tri City. It's well established in Des Moines and Omaha. And it's failed/struggled against competition such as Minnesota HS hockey (Twin Cities and Rochester), college hockey (Madison, Columbus), big city environment (Chicago, St. Louis, Indy, Columbus).

Are there opportunities for expansion? Yes. I still hope LaCrosse works. There's a group in Wausau, WI looking. I was hoping that when the UHL mophed that the USHL would get Rockford and Quad Cities, but they aimed high (AHL) and time will tell if that works. I think Rapid City, SD, may have worked but they made their choice. Maybe that Ohio-Indiana area can find teams, like the cities you mentioned.

As for Fargo, that's a business choice by the USHL folks. If they think it can work, that's their money on the line. Yes, it affects the NAHL team, but I doubt USAH will stifle competition.

[Marc Foster]

There's some markets being named that I know are on the USHL's radar, especially the eastern ones.

Evansville needs a new arena. The floor of Roberts Stadium (yes, Stadium) is too small to hold a rink. Toledo currently has NO arena, and the one they are building is slated for the return of the Storm (who were bought by the Mud Hens, and who might consider taking them AHL). Dayton - Hara Arena is still around. Louisville has been mentioned in news articles, mostly by Josh Mervis. Cincy as a hockey market is a mess and needs a hard reboot. There's still interest in Bloomy. Lexington's arena is way too big. They need a 5,000-6,000 seats for a team to be viable. LaCrosse's issues have been mentioned before. However, I know a group that this summer was willing to spend the money to make it happen, but then they decided to buy an NHL team instead. Findlay is too small a market, IMHO. Kzoo and Fort Wayne would shun at the idea of high school hockey - especially the Fort Wayners, who despite having had pro hockey for decades supported by a large fanbase, are a remarkably ignorant lot when it comes to the game (just go read the ITB Board and see).

[stlfan]

This seems to have taken a turn towards what are viable markets, which is good. Does anyone remember at one point in time (5, 6 or 7 years ago) that there was talk about putting a team in Columbia, MO? What about that as a market? College town (Lincoln), no other hockey (Mizzou ACHA Club), good sized city. Of course, like most smaller communities, I think they are driven by high school football. Now with the resurgence of Mizzou football, I don't know if this is as an attractive option as it might once have been. Relatively close to Omaha, Lincoln and Cedar Rapids (4 1/2 hours each), Waterloo (5 hours), Sioux City and Kearney (6+ hours), Green Bay is 9 hours, without weather . I think that would be a good alternative or at least be a potential location. Of course, I guess someone needs to WANT to put a team there first.

[Marc Foster]

I seem to recall Columbia being on the USHL's wish list maybe 5 years ago. Since, baseball's Mid-Missouri Mavericks have been a relative disappointment, and there's still nowhere for a hockey team to play. I believe Mizzou plays at the seasonal rink in Jeff City, which wouldn't even pass Jr. B (excuse me, T3A) standards...

[sgtrock]

To jump on what Marc is saying about LEX. The Rupp Arena would be way to big to market something with this size audience. Where U of Ky(D2) and Eastern Ky(D3) ice Clubs play, Lexington Ice Arena, that venue is way too small and non accommodating. And at the time , I thought Valley Ice Arena, Beaverton, Oregon was bad until I saw Lex Ice. And the college teams can't start until midnight. A Jr Tier could never survive with a late schedule like that. As much as I would love to see Jr Hockey in Lexington, there isn't a good enough market for it here. But now if we could get a viable SPHL here in Lexington, I think that might work.

[gbpuckfan]

IIRC, they announced an "affiliation" deal with an eastern league, but it never really developed into a minor league or protected draft situation. I don't remember it ever being something which would compete for Andersons or Clarks, however.

[offtheglass]

"Fargo Fracas" really reflects progression of USHL plans. Next year I would suspect Columbus moves to Cincy, (Ice Gardens, with owner of Ice Gardens being part owner ofthe team), Louisville enters league, and perhaps Evansville. NAHL team may join USHL and likely candidates would be Texas and Wichita Falls with perhaps Mahoning Valley slipping in there. The USHL reaches it 16 team plan and can begin thinking about 2-4 divisions. As the USHL adds teams (and therefore players) it increases it's chances of landing NHL drafted players on USHL rosters and the development money from the NHL that goes with those drafted players.

Marc, you are well informed on the in's and out's of this stuff. But I believe I am correct on the development money for drafted players. And to be more specific I think the amount is around $300,000 for a first round player.

[stlfan]

admin said:

I seem to recall Columbia being on the USHL's wish list maybe 5 years ago. Since, baseball's Mid-Missouri Mavericks have been a relative disappointment, and there's still nowhere for a hockey team to play. I believe Mizzou plays at the seasonal rink in Jeff City, which wouldn't even pass Jr. B (excuse me, T3A) standards...

Actually, I don't think it would pass midget standards!!! It's horrible. The team has actually been known to drive to Wentzville (about 1/2 hour from St. Louis) for practices.

[Marc Foster]

offtheglass said:

"Fargo Fracas" really reflects progression of USHL plans. Next year I would suspect Columbus moves to Cincy, (Ice Gardens, with owner of Ice Gardens being part owner ofthe team), Louisville enters league, and perhaps Evansville. NAHL team may join USHL and likely candidates would be Texas and Wichita Falls with perhaps Mahoning Valley slipping in there. The USHL reaches it 16 team plan and can begin thinking about 2-4 divisions. As the USHL adds teams (and therefore players) it increases it's chances of landing NHL drafted players on USHL rosters and the development money from the NHL that goes with those drafted players.

Marc, you are well informed on the in's and out's of this stuff. But I believe I am correct on the development money for drafted players. And to be more specific I think the amount is around $300,000 for a first round player.

I don't think Evansville is on the USHL radar. There's no new arena on the horizon and Roberts Stadium is a non-starter as a potential option from what I understand.

I'm not sure what the money is, and I think it gets pooled anyway. But first, the USHL (or USA Hockey for the NCAA draftees) needs to be accorded a piece of the pie in the first place. I did some work on this and based on current draft numbers the average team was going to get upwards of $200k, which would go up more if the NTDP went away (not to start that argument, but just saying) and those kids went USHL...

[fangers]

offtheglass said:

"Fargo Fracas" really reflects progression of USHL plans. Next year I would suspect Columbus moves to Cincy, (Ice Gardens, with owner of Ice Gardens being part owner ofthe team), Louisville enters league, and perhaps Evansville. NAHL team may join USHL and likely candidates would be Texas and Wichita Falls with perhaps Mahoning Valley slipping in there. The USHL reaches it 16 team plan and can begin thinking about 2-4 divisions. As the USHL adds teams (and therefore players) it increases it's chances of landing NHL drafted players on USHL rosters and the development money from the NHL that goes with those drafted players.

Where you hearing this from? Just speculation or your part or what? I had PM'd you with a question previously with no reply, so just curious if you post stuff just to post or if you actually have some insight/contacts.

I know that there is a group interested in bringing something to Louisville. I know that one of the parties already working for another USHL owns one team (old St Louis) franchise rights and who has Louisville ties.

Not sure how much interest the Cincy owners of the Gardens would have in a Jr team, after they couldn't get sufficient support to bring the AHL in...but then again, a tenant better than what they have now.

[Marc Foster]

fangers said:

I know that there is a group interested in bringing something to Louisville. I know that one of the parties already working for another USHL owns one team (old St Louis) franchise rights and who has Louisville ties.

While the rights might have come from St. Louis, I am unaware of the Louisville ownership being connected in any way to that franchise when it was active. I will say the main party is a former owner of another USHL franchise.

I'm also unaware of locals being part of the ownership group, but I could just be out of the loop on that. I'm just waiting for the primary owner to decide on the name/logo/jerseys, I've been allowed a preview of ten different name concepts in the last year. He probably won't make a decision until all his other ducks are in a row and he HAS to decide. When this is all done I hope to be able to show the ideas that didn't make it.

If I'm not mistaken (I've slept since then), the other set of franchise rights this particular owner was holding were recently sold to the Fargo group.

[offtheglass]

Fangers,

Yes sometimes I do post stuff just to post it. Don't we all......helps pass the long winter nights. But sometimes I am a very good listener and you'd be surprised what you hear.

I did not receive a PM from you that I know of, but I could have overlooked it. As for Cincy and a USHL team. It has been under discussion for some time. I can say with high porbability that the Columbus team will be leaving next year. Cincy was under consideration for a new team but looks like Columbus may now move there. The team in Columbus is a "loaner" team as it were. That is, the franchise was not purchased and is on loan rom the USHL. (Some money was given to the league, but notthe full franchise fee.) The current coaches and GM ofthe Columbus team do not actually live in Columbus which to me speaks volumes as to their perceptions of the longevity in Columbus. As I suspect you have heard also, the NHL CBJ, since the exit of MacLean, is less than supportive of the USHL team. Attendance is absolutley terrible and the costs are high. Even equipment and ancillary help given by CBJ is understood to be gone next year.

Specifically, the name I have heard for the Louisville team is Mervis and the owner of the Ice Gardens as at least part owner of a team in Cincy would be involved in Cincy.

Now is this all speculation......perhaps. But not mine, and the sources are at least good enough to give them some credence I think.

[Marc Foster]

Off, you're on the right track from everything I've heard. That's assuming we're not all working int he same echo-chamber, of course...

[fangers]

offtheglass said:

Fangers,

Yes sometimes I do post stuff just to post it. Don't we all......helps pass the long winter nights. But sometimes I am a very good listener and you'd be surprised what you hear.

I did not receive a PM from you that I know of, but I could have overlooked it. As for Cincy and a USHL team. It has been under discussion for some time. I can say with high porbability that the Columbus team will be leaving next year. Cincy was under consideration for a new team but looks like Columbus may now move there. The team in Columbus is a "loaner" team as it were. That is, the franchise was not purchased and is on loan rom the USHL. (Some money was given to the league, but notthe full franchise fee.) The current coaches and GM ofthe Columbus team do not actually live in Columbus which to me speaks volumes as to their perceptions of the longevity in Columbus. As I suspect you have heard also, the NHL CBJ, since the exit of MacLean, is less than supportive of the USHL team. Attendance is absolutley terrible and the costs are high. Even equipment and ancillary help given by CBJ is understood to be gone next year.

Specifically, the name I have heard for the Louisville team is Mervis and the owner of the Ice Gardens as at least part owner of a team in Cincy would be involved in Cincy.

Now is this all speculation......perhaps. But not mine, and the sources are at least good enough to give them some credence I think.

Fair enough, was just curious so thanks for taking time to expound a bit. I know there are those who post "rumors" just to stir the pot, but if you feel there's some credibility to your sources, cool.

To clarify a bit - the "Ice Gardens" is in Louisville. The rink in Cincy is the "Cincinnati Gardens". Hence some of my confusion. Personally, would love to see teams in both Cincy & Louisville (especially if OJBJ move to Cincy).

And yes, there's plenty of fodder around to fuel all kinds of speculation about the OJBJ future, some it based in fact, some can to be explained (I know some of the parties and why some things happened/happening), and some seems not to be based on anything concrete.

My PM was in regards to your Blaise to OSU comment - heard that rumor last year, but hadn't heard it recently, so was curious where you had it heard it. Know several who would/could be impacted by that and again, just curious.

[vahockey]

Josh Mervis isn't too terribly shy about telling people about Louisville. He told me 10 seconds after I met him for the first time. For all he knew I could have been a serial killer or a newspaper reporter or a potential competitor in the Louisville marketplace (although competitors in the Louisville hockey market have to be pretty rare).

Here is new Blais info, although it's not rumor cuz I heard it with my own ears on the internet during last week's North Dakota - Minnesota game: He actively campainged during the interview for the now-open North Dakota athletic director position. He joked about it once, then again and finally the play-by-play guy asked him if he was seriously interested and Dean said, "Absolutely."

He probably stands a better chance of getting a D-I coaching job this spring, but he's not letting grass grow.

[johnmeissner]

offtheglass said:

USHL/Fargo

Coming to a theater near you......Dean Blaise as the new head hockey coach at Ohio State University.

Nope. Not at a theatre OR an arena in Columbus near anyone. OSU's current coach recently got a contract extension, from what I was told.

[johnmeissner]

darrenpuppa said:

What about Bismark?

To be correct, it's Bismarck.

To be specific, while geographically it would be a great fit and a good travel partner for Fargo, Bismarck needs a new building. The VFW Arena is a rec rink with wooden bleachers down both sides. With standing room, capacity is approximately 1,600. There is not enough room The big building just off downtown, the Civic Center, is useless for hockey, since renovations were made to keep the state basketball higherups happy.

[johnmeissner]

sgtrock said:

The Rupp Arena would be way to big to market something with this size audience.

Quite true. Even if a Junior team could average 6,000 per game, in a building like Rupp or Nationwide in Columbus, it would still be lost. With that said:

sgtrock said:

But now if we could get a viable SPHL here in Lexington, I think that might work.

A "viable" SPHL team (other than Knoxville, Huntsville and Fayetville, I don't think there is such a thing) would be in the same boat as a USHL team would be, with the size of Rupp Arena. And if the community wouldn't support the AHL, once they saw the lack of quality of the SPHL, they would stay away in droves. (I am very familiar with the SPHL. It's good for what it is, but what it is ain't much. The USHL is better quality hockey than the SPHL. But, for hockey at ANY level above youth or rec hockey to return to Lexington, someone needs to build an arena seating between 4,000 and 6,000 first.

And I can relate to what you said about Valley Ice Arena. I spent many a day (and night) absolutely freezing in there, while either watching, playing or officiating hockey. I found it quite laughable earlier today when I saw on the River City Jaguars website, that there is a fund raising project on now to raise money to buy a four-sided scoreboard. My question: Where would they put it. The ceiling in there is low enough as it is. To hang even the smallest of boards above the ice would be an pretty interesting thing to see.

[vahockey]

Markell signed a five-year contract at OSU in April 2005, so his term will be up in April 2010.

Although that hasn't stopped some big money schools from eating large chunks of contract, regardless of the sport.

[sgtrock]

John, I dont know if you have any information on it or not but Georgetown, Ky is building an events center, especially for the World Equestrian Events scheduled for 2010. It will be a 6500 seat arena. After the horse events the facility is scheduled to be used for other venues including Georgetown College and Scott County HS sporting events. So listening to some of the local people, they would love to see some sort of hockey coming to this arena. And Lexington is about 10 minutes south of where the facility will be. So overall the rebirth of hockey in Ky would be a welcome sight.

[fangers]

sgtrock said:

John, I dont know if you have any information on it or not but Georgetown, Ky is building an events center, especially for the World Equestrian Events scheduled for 2010. It will be a 6500 seat arena. After the horse events the facility is scheduled to be used for other venues including Georgetown College and Scott County HS sporting events. So listening to some of the local people, they would love to see some sort of hockey coming to this arena. And Lexington is about 10 minutes south of where the facility will be. So overall the rebirth of hockey in Ky would be a welcome sight.

Any plans to include the necessary ice making equipment/

[sgtrock]

There is talk but nothing has yet to be written in stone. There are supposively questions being asked about cost, need and revenue production. I am keeping my fingers crossed. and I am also trying to give my two cents with it. So I have started some number crunches. Time will tell.

[offtheglass]

John:

Markell did get a contract extension as did many of the "minor" sports coaches when the last Athletic Director left OSU. (A little nose thumbing parting shot/land mine for the new AD to deal with down the road by the departing AD.) But do you really think OSU with the revenues from the BCS bowl and national championship football season can't buy out a hockey coach if they want to?