Fargo Fracas

[Marc Foster]

I'm going to go ahead and open up a thread on what happened today between the Jets and USA Hockey regarding the invasion of the Force...

(Blog Post: Throw Down in Fargo)

Fire away, folks...

[Dad]

USAH has once again shown that their 'support' and respect for their own members and rules etc. has about as much meaning as the much vaunted 'honor among thieves'...
I suspect this will not be altered in any way by mere objections from any league or team. I suspect the term might resemble 'the fix is in'? No reason why not. Things like rules and by laws have never meant much when they were looking for a way to do something.

[stlfan]

Maybe they should take some of the millions spent on the USNDT and spread it among the teams that are hurt by this. Oh, I forgot, that won't happen either. I am a huge proponent of the USHL, but not at the expense of screwing another team. While Marc points out there is really no argument, you would hope that USAH would at least try to protect the interests of ALL their members, not just the USHL members. Personally, I think the concept of the USHL is awesome, but that doesn't mean the Jets should be left out in the cold...so to speak.

[tired of USAH]

You are kidding, right? USAH has not and does not care about it's members. They care about two things, getting your membership money and bragging rights to how many players THEY promote to the NHL. They violate their own rules and those of their governing body, USOC, consistently.

We as members, have the power to simply say NO to the USAH. We hockey members do not have to play hockey under their governing body as is evident by the High School, Prep School, and College Hockey programs across the USA. None of these programs are governed by USA hockey and yet still exist. If the NAHL decided tomorrow that the lack of support the USAH has shown to the the Fargo Jets and the league as a whole, they could simply cease to be members of USA hockey. The games would still be played, the fans would still come and watch, and the only thing that would happen is that the NTDP would not participate in the league.

Seriously folks, what has USAH done for you or yours lately? They run a National Tournament, spend millions of dollars on 40 players a year, and what else? NOTHING.

Oh wait, they also made a farce of Junior A with the advent of Junior A Tier III. A new tier that allowed any and all Junior B teams across the US to be called Junior A in an attempt to dupe more unsuspecting kids and their families in to the never ending money machine, just to say they played "Junior A".

[Marc Foster]

Quick FYI, I accidentally left a setting open when I built the forum, and this allowed non-members to post. I finnaly found where the setting was hiding and closed that door this morning.

[stlfan]

Can someone correct me if I'm wrong or enlighten me please? I thought that all of those levels were ultimately under the USA Hockey banner. Not necessarily governed by them but still under the umbrella.

[sweetp]

Do you feel by allowing this (encroachment)it will set precedent with all USAH member organizatons?

[Marc Foster]

Set? No... Reinforce? Sure...

I believe I said in the blog, USAH has never enforced inter-league territories before, so why start now?

[crosscheck]

admin said:

Set? No... Reinforce? Sure...

I believe I said in the blog, USAH has never enforced inter-league territories before, so why start now?

Including when two leagues of the same level play in the same area and of course even when the Tier II NAHL plays in a Tier III town.

[stephenheisler]

So, what we are really seeing here is this. USAH does not protect existing franchises, or franchise areas. The way to combat this is cancel all games against that NTDP. Tell them to have at it against the NCAA or college club teams. Or better yet, let them join the USHL.

I do not even want to get started about this. There are other options. Ones that can quickly raise the level of play in the NAHL to a position way above that of the mighty USHL.

AAU. Even mention that to USAH and it will make their collective butts pucker up. The very last thing that the USHL wants is to have to deal with the NAHL playing at a equal or higher level. Nothing like eliminating the import rule to change the face of the level of play. Face it, the NAHL is a product. That product is being water downed by the baloney of USAH. We let them take the top 50 16s and 17s. We give the USHL all the prospects they want, and the NAHL gets what is left over. Screw that. Open up the NAHL to the World. Get here legally, even on a tourist visa, be of age, and you can play. How long would it take for the top American prospects to figure out that the NAHL might be a better option?

Punch em in the mouth.

[crosscheck]

stephenheisler said:

So, what we are really seeing here is this. USAH does not protect existing franchises, or franchise areas. The way to combat this is cancel all games against that NTDP. Tell them to have at it against the NCAA or college club teams. Or better yet, let them join the USHL.

I do not even want to get started about this. There are other options. Ones that can quickly raise the level of play in the NAHL to a position way above that of the mighty USHL.

AAU. Even mention that to USAH and it will make their collective butts pucker up. The very last thing that the USHL wants is to have to deal with the NAHL playing at a equal or higher level. Nothing like eliminating the import rule to change the face of the level of play. Face it, the NAHL is a product. That product is being water downed by the baloney of USAH. We let them take the top 50 16s and 17s. We give the USHL all the prospects they want, and the NAHL gets what is left over. Screw that. Open up the NAHL to the World. Get here legally, even on a tourist visa, be of age, and you can play. How long would it take for the top American prospects to figure out that the NAHL might be a better option?

Punch em in the mouth.

Yes, great plan, bring in non-Americans to solve the issues of the NAHL. Sorry Stevie, the USHL is top dog and deservingly so. The NAHL has been aimless for over a decade. The USHL has a business plan and have for the most part stuck to it. Thats why they are the top dogs and the NAHL teams come and go like Alaskan oil diggers.

[gbpuckfan]

stephenheisler said:

Or better yet, let them join the USHL.

What makes you think we want them? We played 2 games per year against them for awhile, then the team was in the league. And the USHL finally just said "no." If the NAHL doesn't like them, do the same.

Individual USHL teams may schedule them as an extra home (read: revenue) date, but it's no longer league-wde. I like that.

[stephenheisler]

Cross Check,
The product is hockey. The goal is to promote the kids on to college or the Pro game. I do not see the NCAA with a import restriction, so why should we? If lifting that restriction makes the product better, then more American players may want to get in on the higher level of play. Lets face it, the USHL has become a glorified Midget league. I wonder what the breakdown is now. Maybe 66% of the players are of midget level age. If the NAHL was to get out of that game ( the midget and high school programs would like that), and take just 18-20s, the level of play would raise. Not to mention the fact that our PR would improve by shutting up the " It's High School Hockey" screamers. How would that play in Fargo? The Jets with the 18-20's and the Farce with the HS kids?

[crosscheck]

stephenheisler said:

Cross Check,
The product is hockey. The goal is to promote the kids on to college or the Pro game. I do not see the NCAA with a import restriction, so why should we? If lifting that restriction makes the product better, then more American players may want to get in on the higher level of play. Lets face it, the USHL has become a glorified Midget league. I wonder what the breakdown is now. Maybe 66% of the players are of midget level age. If the NAHL was to get out of that game ( the midget and high school programs would like that), and take just 18-20s, the level of play would raise. Not to mention the fact that our PR would improve by shutting up the " It's High School Hockey" screamers. How would that play in Fargo? The Jets with the 18-20's and the Farce with the HS kids?

Might be your goal, but it isn't everyone else's goal. Lets face it, the USHL has their "stuff" together. The NAHL never has and probably never will. That USHL Midget league sure does produce a lot of D1 players and NHL draft picks. I guess you think thats bad too.

[oldref]

I'm wondering why no one is bringing up the fact that Chicago had two competing franchises in the NAHL and USHL back in 2000? I know Chicago is a much bigger city, but anyone that remembers knows that neither team drew very well. I know the Freeze eventually left.....but is that USA Hockey's fault?

Are we just reaching for straws here in blaming USA Hockey?

And to the people that think going AAU or independent is the route.......please trust in the fact that if that were truly the best option it would've already happened. There are far more consequences related to that decision than you believe.

[stlfan]

oldref said:

I'm wondering why no one is bringing up the fact that Chicago had two competing franchises in the NAHL and USHL back in 2000? I know Chicago is a much bigger city, but anyone that remembers knows that neither team drew very well. I know the Freeze eventually left.....but is that USA Hockey's fault?

Are we just reaching for straws here in blaming USA Hockey?

And to the people that think going AAU or independent is the route.......please trust in the fact that if that were truly the best option it would've already happened. There are far more consequences related to that decision than you believe.

I'd like to think that people are more enlightened these days and should have learned from past mistakes. But, to answer your question, comparing Fargo and Chicago is like comparing....oh, I don't know....Antarctica and Florida. You could have 3 teams in different sections of the Chicago metro area, with more than enough local players to warrant a team, with enough distance between them to not even overlap. In Fargo, you don't have that option. You have a small community fighting for the same dollars. In Chicago, you don't have that. Personally, I think you are comparing apples and oranges. On top of the fact that the owner of the Steel obviously doesn't need the gate revenue to sustain his team whereas the Fargo teams will likely HAVE to have strong gates to survive. Remember, one team has already moved from Fargo and the USHL, so putting two competing teams in the same small city can only spell disaster, IMHO.

[oldref]

Stlfan-

Antarctica and Florida? Apples and Oranges?

Please consider me one of the very enlightened people you talked about. I never said Chicago and Fargo were similar markets, but I did reference the fact that neither club in Chicago drew well.....just like the problem Fargo has always had. There is far more competition in Chicago for the hockey dollar then Fargo could ever imagine.......so again I repeat that I'm not comparing the markets.

You talk about gate revenue and competition for talent. Since when do junior A teams need to rely on local talent? Isn't the idea to get the best player out there? Who do you think will recruit better.....Dean Blais or Chad Johnson? I personally know Chad is a good coach, but it's gonna be tough to compete with a guy that's coached at UND...right?

As for gate revenue....who will be the bigger draw? People from Fargo will go to games just because of the new coach! That's probably at least a couple hundred tickets right there! Maybe you should be pissed off that the "Force" prepared themselves to secure the market?

Based on your name (Stlfan) I can guess that you're not from Fargo, nor have probably ever been there. I know junior hockey will never be well-received in that part of the country because of the love for high school hockey.

Lastly...I hate the fact that USA Hockey gets blamed for stuff like this. Look at the big picture and stop whining about little things.

[Marc Foster]

oldref said:

Lastly...I hate the fact that USA Hockey gets blamed for stuff like this.

I'll back you on this to some degree. USA Hockey has never held the power to control and protect territories, and won't unless the Junior Council decides to put those protections in the regs. This isn't like Minor league Baseball, where the governing body much more power and actually enforces their regs (especially in the realm of facilities).

It's funny in some ways that the Jets are seeking relief via USA Hockey, when many in the USHL aren't exactly thrilled with USA Hockey either. In fact, I love the suggesting of making a threat of kicking the NTDP out of the NAHL, because anything that weakens the NTDP makes the USHL that much stronger.

[crosscheck]

Here is my take on all of this. Fargo won't support both teams. That is fact. So the NAHL gets shoved out of an existing market. The USHL throws their weight around to get what they want. Fair? Probably not. But if I was a fan in Fargo, I would want the USHL team and not the NAHL team. The NAHL history indicates that stability is not in their vocabulary. The USHL has made a few mistakes, but for the most part, are a solid league. The NAHL can't go one season without fears of falling apart, or restructuring. The fans of Fargo should be happy. And again, the NAHL is losing yet another battle with the USHL. To blame USA Hockey for this is ridiculous. But then again, if USA Hockey ever had the cahoonas to get involved in issues like this, maybe we wouldn't have the mess we now have in the East.

[stlfan]

oldref said:

Stlfan-

Antarctica and Florida? Apples and Oranges?

Please consider me one of the very enlightened people you talked about. I never said Chicago and Fargo were similar markets, but I did reference the fact that neither club in Chicago drew well.....just like the problem Fargo has always had. There is far more competition in Chicago for the hockey dollar then Fargo could ever imagine.......so again I repeat that I'm not comparing the markets.

You talk about gate revenue and competition for talent. Since when do junior A teams need to rely on local talent? Isn't the idea to get the best player out there? Who do you think will recruit better.....Dean Blais or Chad Johnson? I personally know Chad is a good coach, but it's gonna be tough to compete with a guy that's coached at UND...right?

As for gate revenue....who will be the bigger draw? People from Fargo will go to games just because of the new coach! That's probably at least a couple hundred tickets right there! Maybe you should be pissed off that the "Force" prepared themselves to secure the market?

Based on your name (Stlfan) I can guess that you're not from Fargo, nor have probably ever been there. I know junior hockey will never be well-received in that part of the country because of the love for high school hockey.

Lastly...I hate the fact that USA Hockey gets blamed for stuff like this. Look at the big picture and stop whining about little things.

Wow, did you take something a little personally there oldguy? First of all, you don't know me, like I don't know you. You don't know where I have been and where I haven't been.

As for coaches, it's going to be hard to recruit against a USHL team, wherever you are. So that is a moot point.

Not sure what your "Force" reference was supposed to mean as that is a tuition based team and isn't even in the equation and not (or shouldn't be) gate driven.

Next, where am I "whining" about anything. So I have a tendency to agree with the Jets organization. The USHL is a better product and if I were a Fargo resident (which you can see I am not), I would want the USHL there too. I think USA Hockey should have given the NAHL team some consideration. Could they have stopped it, probably not (I agree with Marc there). But does that make it right?

Finally, you are absolutely comparing the Fargo issue with Chicago. It says so in your first sentence...here let me cut and paste it for you...I'm wondering why no one is bringing up the fact that Chicago had two competing franchises in the NAHL and USHL back in 2000? As I said above, I'd like to think we are more enlightened today. It is totally apples and oranges. Chicago, in theory, (with the number of tix available to the Blackhawks, the cost of those tix, the number of registered players, the number of local kids that they could attract - thereby increasing local interest in attending the games, in two different parts of the city) could support two junior teams. Fargo can not, THAT was my point that you obviously missed. Now, I'm sure you're going to say that it was empirically proven that Chicago couldn't and I'll argue that they could, but they DIDN'T. I would also argue that the USHL is better suited to smaller markets, that doesn't mean it couldn't work in larger markets.

Bottomline, you would think USAH would have enough respect for the investment that the owners of the Jets made, AFTER the USHL already failed once there, to ENCOURAGE the USHL team to maybe consider somewhere else. It just doesn't look like that happened in this case. So now, you will gain a USHL team, but probably lose a North American team. So what is the net benefit?

[Marc Foster]

Ummm Fanny, the USHL team is the Fargo Force... he's not talking about Chicago's CSHL team.

[oldref]

Hey...no hard feelings whatsoever. I love the spirited conversations!

I admit that I get upset when everything gets dumped on USA Hockey's doorstep. I feel that it's just taking the easy way out.

I will also admit that I was a USHL guy....so I'm partial.

[vahockey]

Fargo Jets have a problem called the Fargo Coliseum. The barn has a short ice surface, poor lighting and looks EXACTLY the same way it did 25 years ago. Not the worst building in the world, but Fargo grew toward the South (people and money). The Coliseum is located in North Fargo, just off NDSU campus. The fact the people and the money are far south of Main Ave., nowhere near the Coliseum, plays into this a bit.

Fargo is a NDSU town. Moorhead, Minn., across the river, is much smaller than Fargo yet has produced Jason Blake, Matt Cullen, Ryan Kraft and a host of other Division I and minor professional hockey players. Much more of a hockey town. The FM Bears of the USHL played at the Moorhead Sports Center and it didn't work out. Moorhead wouldn't support the USHL. Very much a Moorhead High School hockey town.

The Fargo-Moorhead Ice Sharks played out of the Coliseum if I recall. Same issues as Jets suffer from, but I think they made it three or four years before becoming the Chicago Steel.

Junior hockey has given it a go in Fargo for the past 12 years, off and on. It has never been even marginally successful. The fact the USHL was wise enough to jump back into the fray along WITH a much-needed rink with five sheets of ice, has rallied the entire community. That's what has been lacking - tough to fight NDSU and high school hockey in this part of the country, but waving five sheets of ice in front of the general public can do it.

Incidentally, I found it interesting the last Fargo Forum article indicated that there was no guarantee that more than one ice sheet would be built (the main sheet on which the Force is supposed to play next year). Smells like the fleecing of the public in the near future, but that's another story.

Should the USHL not be allowed to get involved with this rink effort? Why didn't the NAHL franchise get involved? Where is the Jets owner (Minneapolis)? I can say that if the Jets got into this effort, people would have still been behind it. Dean Blais and the USHL certainly add a wise and generous dose of polish, but the much-needed sheets of ice are really what got this thing off the ground despite past USHL performance in the metro area. Dean Blais and the USHL, without the five sheets of ice, would last as long as the Bears or the Ice Sharks.

In my opinion, none of this has anything to do with USA Hockey. USAH deciding after all these years to stick its fingers into this would do nothing for the overall situation. The Jets aren't in bed with the potential of five sheets of ice, nor can USA Hockey make that happen. Junior hockey exists in the wide-open business marketplace. Good or bad, USAH would be walking a thin line by trying to dictate overall business opportunity. They either need to manage it unilaterally (which would be disastrous and out of their line of expertise) or allow the markets to handle themselves. Leagues can protect their franchises, but inter-league protection can only be accomplished by two leagues agreeing.

[stlfan]

admin said:

Ummm Fanny, the USHL team is the Fargo Force... he's not talking about Chicago's CSHL team.

Hahaha...oops!! I guess I should have picked that up huh??? Totally missed that one.

[stlfan]

oldref said:

Hey...no hard feelings whatsoever. I love the spirited conversations!

I admit that I get upset when everything gets dumped on USA Hockey's doorstep. I feel that it's just taking the easy way out.

I will also admit that I was a USHL guy....so I'm partial.

I wasn't trying to dump anything on USAH, if you want to see that, get me started on the USNDP!! ;D

I guess I just see this as a respect issue more than anything because these teams are not cheap as we all know. So if I was the Jets, I'd try to do whatever I could to protect my investment too. But, I guess time will tell. So...I guess we should let someone else comment, huh?

[sweetp]

No, you 2 keep going, you're doing great.
Many of us are getting schooled in ethics.

[hawerchuk]

Flameseh - I did a couple hours work for you on the NAHL and Canadian Tier II junior. They appear to have a lower level of competition than the USHL. I added the results as a footnote to the original article. You can pay me back in beer for the effort...

[jtornado]

vahockey said:

Not the worst building in the world, but Fargo grew toward the South (people and money). The Coliseum is located in North Fargo, just off NDSU campus.

Fargo actually is big enough to have a North and South?

Learn something new every day...

[vahockey]

There is even a West Fargo, with its own mayor and property tax billing system. At some point I would imagine Fargo will be forced to annex much of NW Minnesota (which will become East Fargo) in an effort to find space for its mega outdoorsman stores and farm implement dealerships.

[offtheglass]

USHL/Fargo

Coming to a theater near you......Dean Blaise as the new head hockey coach at Ohio State University.